Organizational psychologist and author Melissa Doman, MA joins IMS Client Success Advisor and podcast host Adam Bloomberg for a special series in honor of Mental Health Awareness Month. Listen, watch, and/or read the transcript below. (Part 1 of 3)
Hello, and welcome to the IMS Insights Podcast. I’m your host, Adam Bloomberg. Today we’re speaking with Melissa Doman about the importance of mental health conversations at work, how leaders can set the example, and why post-pandemic stress levels are so high.
Melissa Doman is an organizational psychologist, author, and former clinical mental health therapist. She works with clients around the globe—including Google and Dow Jones—and has partnered with IMS since May 2021. Her goal is to equip companies, individuals, and leaders to have constructive conversations about mental health in the workplace.
Adam Bloomberg:
Melissa, thank you for joining the IMS Insights Podcast in honor of Mental Health Awareness Month. We've been lucky to partner with you in the past, including last year, your virtual book club that was centered on your book, “Yes, You Can Talk About Mental Health at Work: Here's Why and How to Do It Really Well”. We're looking forward to expanding on those conversations and talking a little bit more specifically about mental health in the legal field. I've got a lot of questions to ask about this.
Melissa Doman, MA:
I have so many answers to give!
Adam Bloomberg:
Can you tell us what led you to write the book, and why it's so important to discuss mental health at work, regardless of the field or the industry?
Melissa Doman, MA:
Good question right out of the gate. So, I think what drove me to write the book is, you know I used to be a clinician, a long time ago, and one of the key reasons I switched into org-psych is because all of my patients had two major things in common. None of them felt like they could talk about mental health in the workplace, let alone mental illness, which, as we know are separate things, and we'll, I think, go into that a bit later. And also, a lot of them felt like their workplace cultures were slowly torturing them, and I thought, let me see if I can make an impact at the source. So, I switched into org-psych to do, you know, team dynamics, communication, constructive conflict, you know all those fun things, and I still do a lot of that traditional org-psych work. I love that work. But what I found is that I was still getting requests, “Hey, can you do mental health awareness campaigns because you used to be clinician?” I said, “Yes, absolutely. I'd love to.”
From the first one I did it just took off like a rocket, and it's been so incredibly busy since I sub-specialized in 2018, that I found I was doing all these talks, all these engagements, and it was kind of coalescing into this large mountain of work. And I was like, there is no how-to guide on the market on how to actually have this conversation. Everybody is de-stigmatizing it until they're blue in the face. Everybody is saying this conversation is so important, but no one is actually teaching people the skills of how to actually do it. And that's what is preventing a lot of these conversations. And I was like, I can write that, and then I pitched a publisher, and they accepted it, and I go, “Oh my God, now I have to write it. That's terrifying.”
And so that's what drove me to write it, and they were so hard on me on the manuscript, which, as an author feels like you're getting skinned alive. But I’m so happy that they did, because it made it this concrete, easy-to-follow guidebook that no matter what industry you're in, no matter what position you sit in, there is something in there for everybody, because, I say at the beginning, take what works for you, and leave all the rest that doesn't feel like it applies. And so, if we're thinking about why it's really critical to have this conversation, regardless of the industry that you work in, I think the question is, how is it not? You know, mental health has always been an important conversation, but we're only at the tip of the iceberg in terms of how we're really embedding these conversations, and I take it down to very concrete terms. I basically say, well, the world kind of feels it’s one dumpster fire after another. It is deeply stressful just to be alive in modern times, or, as my sister says, you know, the cost of doing business. And as the world evolves, as the world of work evolves, and as what we carry evolves, it literally doesn't make sense to not only have the lack of psychological safety and permission to have this conversation, but the skillset to do so with people that you work with anywhere from 25 to 70 hours a week. It doesn't make sense not to do it. So, we're not trying to create this Kumbaya circle in the workplace. We're trying to explain to people: what is it we're actually talking about, and what are the ways to actually constructively, concretely have this conversation in the context of work, and that is the harangue that I find myself going on very often.
Adam Bloomberg:
Yeah, I think you really hit the nail on the head because it's been, you know, it's been talked about, like you said. You know, the last what, 5, 6, 7 years, it's been talked about, and you hear it in the workplace, you hear it on the news, but there's never any specifics around it. So, I’m curious to know, what would you say, what are the best ways for leaders and colleagues to begin conversations about their own mental health or concerns, and then others on the team?
Melissa Doman, MA:
So, no matter where we come from, no matter how old we are, what our background is, it is human nature to look to people in leadership positions for role modeling and for permission. That's just how power dynamics tend to work unless you are the rebellious, no-one-can-tell-me-what-to-do type, which you know, power to you. But, generally speaking, that's human dynamics when it comes to, you know, power in the workplace. And so, if we think about how leaders can join that conversation, not just tell others to have it, instead of just diving right in, I typically recommend having a very honest internal conversation first, and saying, “Do I actually want to talk about my mental health in the workplace? Why do I want to do that? What do I want people to know? When do I want them to know it? How do I want to demonstrate that I’m prioritizing my mental health as a leader, in hopes that my team will see that that is a healthy, mature practice that people at all levels of an organization do, so they hopefully follow suit?”
That's where I tend to start, is having that internal conversation instead of just saying, oh, you know, talk about it so they'll follow suit. What are they supposed to do with that? And so, I would answer those questions internally first, and then decide how you're going to deploy it. Does it mean small things, like not hiding on your calendar that you are going to therapy? Does it mean, not lying about your mental state to your team, and you know, putting a big old coat of toxic positivity on when you feel really bad. You know, what does that look like? Or even in direct one-on-ones, or if you're mentioning to a team, it can really be as simple as, “I've just not been myself recently. I've been feeling really down. I feel like I’m not, you know, operating as highly as I could, so in case I seem a bit different, you know, I didn't want you all to guess the reason, and I just wanted to tell you.” It could be as simple as that.
And notice there's nothing clinical that I’m saying. You know, having general conversations about mental health are not the same as sharing about a protected characteristic, which then has legal and compliance implications, which is that's a whole different kettle of fish, and I am not an attorney, so I cannot advise on the compliance aspects around that. But if you're starting mental health conversations, have that conversation first with yourself, and then decide concretely, you know, what do you want that to look like? And then, in terms of starting those conversations with other folks, you know that that is a whole different kettle of fish. But if you're a leader, who's trying to do your part to encourage those conversations, those are some simple things you can start with.
Adam Bloomberg:
Yeah, all right, you brought in a pop-culture term: “toxic positivity”.
Melissa Doman, MA:
One of my favorites.
Adam Bloomberg:
Could you expand a little bit on that? I've used that term with describing situations, but I’d love to hear you expand on that a little more.
Melissa Doman, MA:
So, let me first say, being positive is incredibly powerful. Offering hope is incredibly powerful, and approaching things in that way has its time and place. This is being recorded, and I want to document it that I said that. But there is a difference between offering hope or trying to use the power of positive thinking to get through something tough, versus using it all the time for everything as a matter of quote-unquote “coping”, when that is not the human condition, and that is not the human experience. We are pre-programmed with dozens and dozens and dozens of emotions, right out of the box, for a reason: to tell us and other people how to respond to the stimuli in our environment, if we need support, or if we need help from others. So if you're plastering this big smile on your face, I’m fine, and everything is not fine, you disrupt that entire process, and you actually rob yourself and others the opportunity to see how are you actually doing, if you actually need some help.
So a very helpful model that I often refer people to is “The Feeling Wheel" by Dr. Gloria Willcox (W-i-l-l-c-o-x). So, if people look at that model, this beautiful colorful wheel, and they'll notice that there are maybe half of the emotions, maybe a third, they're not so positive. They're not so great, but we are pre-programmed with them for a reason, so we can have access to those emotions as we respond to people and the environment around us. But when you engage in constant silver linings, everything happens for a reason, let's turn that frown upside down, and all these things to push people through these mental states before they're ready, all it really does is unintentionally tell people your negative thoughts and feelings are not welcome in this conversation, and I’m trying to move you on from them, because I feel they're pointless, or they're making me uncomfortable. That's what that does. And so again, hope has a time and place. Positive thinking has a time and place, but so do other emotions and experiences.
Adam Bloomberg:
Yeah, alright, so the pandemic.
Melissa Doman, MA:
The what?
Adam Bloomberg:
A defining moment in this generation. What are some of the most revealing trends you've seen when it comes to stress levels in the workplace, and I suppose we could, you know, strip this down to before the pandemic and after the pandemic, but maybe talk generally about just stress levels in the workplace and the effects of workplace stress.
Melissa Doman, MA:
It was so significant that I dedicated an entire chapter of it in my book. And I'm not saying this to plug the book, but I’m saying it because when I was talking to my publisher, because I started writing it in May of 2020, and I was emailing with them, and I said, “Oh, we need to add another three chapters to this manuscript, because things are happening quickly, and I realize this book is a capture in time. We have to add a chapter on how immense levels of stress are impacting the workplace. We need to add an entire chapter about the pandemic, and we need to add an entire chapter about how continued global systemic racism is impacting this conversation.” And they're like, “Yes, do it.” And I was like, “Great, I just created more work for myself.”
And so, if you think about, let's say average stress. You know, stress is basically encountering a stimuli that requires adjustment or a response. That's it. Stress is very neutral. And so we encounter stress all the time, every day, regardless of where you live on the planet, whether it's good stress or bad, can't avoid it. But if you think about the stress the pandemic caused when there was a literal threat circulating the globe that was making people really sick or killing them. And then, on top of that, you have layoffs. You have political division. You have racism exploding out of control. You have people who can't get access to basic healthcare procedures because the pandemic was like, “if you don't have COVID, we're not seeing you at the hospital.” All these sorts of systemic, inflammatory things that happen, all while being trapped at home.
And that's if you have the luxury to. There are people who still had to keep working, because they were part of essential services, and not to mention the essential versus non-essential had a huge impact on people's mental health if they were deemed non-essential, but that's a story for another time. So you have all of these stressors that are going onto people, to levels that we have not experienced in recent history. That's not to say that there haven't been other massive, massive, massive stressors, generation-defining events. Of course, there have been. But this was a particular brand of the kettle just completely boiling over, and just spilling out everywhere. So you have people who, let's talk about general mental health, where they couldn't remember what happiness felt like. They couldn't remember what basic contentment felt like.
There was this term that became popular really quickly called languishing, which is basically a perpetual feeling of, meh. They just don't have any, they don't feel anything. It feels like they don't have a pulse. They are, especially in the pandemic, people were having a lot of emotional volatility where it felt like they were experiencing 18 different emotional states in a day. There were lots of folks who were relying on substances to kind of medicate how they were feeling, because it was just so, this perpetual uncertainty, ambiguity, and volatility was just too much to bear. And then this isn't even going into the mental health impact of the division of social relationships that occurred from the different socio-political changes that were happening, and still happening.
And mourning the loss or the changes of those relationships and how incredibly painful that is. Now, think about all of that and trying to work. Remotely, when you're used to, let's say, being together in an office, trying to find a way to keep the lights on and keep business running. And this is not even including people who already have preexisting mental health conditions. Some people had tools that they could use, and they say, I was prepared for this, you know, I'm good. But then there's other people who have flare-ups, or even relapses, and they're like, “Well why aren't my tools working? Like what else do I have?” And it's because those tools were used in a time that no longer exists.
And the behavioral health system is completely overloaded. So, people are bringing this with them into the workplace, and I mean it, the next epidemic, we're already in it by the way, is an epidemic of mental illness. Because prior to the pandemic, roughly 1 in 4 people globally would experience some form of a mental health condition in their lifetime. That's the often-touted statistic. The data is not looking great. It's not going in a good direction. I remember specifically, I think it was from the CDC actually, there was a study done between June of 2020 and June of 2021. The rates of clinical anxiety-depression diagnoses quadrupled in the United States amongst adults. It's 2023 now. Just think about that. And so, yes, there has been a, we'll call it a quote-unquote “leveling off”, but not really because all of that stress still happens, and took our cortisol to level, the stress hormone, to levels that are just unhealthy and unsustainable. But now we're having all the ripple effects of that. And it's not only individually, but people carry that with them into the workplace, regardless of whether you go into a physical office building or you’re Zooming in or using Teams. And so, the long answer, or rather short answer to all of that is, it's still happening.
Adam Bloomberg:
Yeah, I, you know, I honestly, I felt fortunate that I had the opportunity to work from home and make a living.
Melissa Doman, MA: Many did.
Adam Bloomberg:
I also felt guilty about all the industries that didn't have that opportunity and that luxury. I'm curious to know, our younger workers, let's say the, you know, students just graduating from college. How do you think, maybe this is a softball question, but what sort of effect do you think that has on that generation, 10 years from now, coming out of that?
Melissa Doman, MA:
I shouldn't be laughing. It's because each generation is being impacted in its own way, and I giggle because, millennials, for example. Millennials, by the way, are turning 40, which is a very odd thing to say. But, when we think about generation-defining events, for example, when I think of younger generations, so let's say millennials, Gen Z, Gen Alpha. So there has been so much financial turmoil and disruptors to our quote-unquote “milestones” that we are supposed to reach, that a lot of the younger generations are like, “Oh, my God! When are we going to catch a break? This is not the life that we were quote-unquote “promised”.
Adam Bloomberg:
And I’ll never be able to buy a house!
Melissa Doman, MA:
I’ll never be able to buy a house! Although we got in with interest rates were low, which I'm deeply appreciative of, because our current house, we could not afford with current interest rates. But that's what those three generations are going through, is all they've experienced is this constant volatility and a lack of stability, so it creates this inconsolable anxiety or dread where it's like, well, what's the next thing coming down the pipeline? You know, what is the next thing that's going to ruin my financial livelihood or impact my rights as a citizen? We don't know what's coming down the pipeline, and so we're seeing a lot of just mental health complaints or mental illness developing, or this sense of learned helplessness, where no matter what I do, it seems to be a crappy outcome. So it's really hard, not just for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, but also millennials as well. We just can't seem to catch a break. So that is the non-articulate answer I can give you.
Thank you to Melissa Doman for speaking with us today, and a special thanks to our listeners. Join us next time for part 2 of our interview with Melissa, and don’t forget to subscribe to the IMS Insights Podcast.
IMS has delivered strategic litigation consulting and expert witness services to leading global law firms and Fortune 500 companies for more than 30 years, in more than 40,000 cases. IMS consultants become an extension of your legal team from pre-suit investigation services to discovery and then on to arbitration and trial. Learn more at imslegal.com.
View this content on the National Law Review website: Mental Health at Work in Discussion (natlawreview.com)
